Read Book Online : http://www.archive.org/stream/withpilgrimstome00khan#page/n7/mode/2up

Download pdf book : http://ia311006.us.archive.org/1/items/withpilgrimstome00khan/withpilgrimstome00khan.pdf

@Rare Book Society of India .. please add more information about ''the black stone'' ..

@Ameeta, this is fascinating! Please add the sources to your research.

The black stone - the Sang-e-Aswad - is nearly hollow (or concave) after centuries of kissing by the Faithful. This practise is discontinued now since a heavy glass cover has been placed over it. This is also more hygienic. According to Muslim tradition, the Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) used to stand on it while building the Kaa'ba. What I know for sure (from chemical analysis) is that it is a meteorite that came from outer space.

@Ameeta, the link you mentioned makes dubious linguistic links by way of research. I have no doubt that trade routes have existed between Arabia and the subcontinent for thousands of years and that there has a two-way exchange of knowledge and culture between the two during this time. It would be nice to uncover evidence though archaeology or ancient books from either areas.

does anybody have an available picture to post?

Dear Ameeta: Thank you for your comment. I wish I knew more about Indian mythology to comment on the 52 body pieces of Sati but it sounds interesting - and I respect it. It should not be difficult to tell if the 52 Sati peeths are fossils or meteorites since their appearance and chemical composition should be completely different. What I have written about the Sang-e-Aswad, however, is based on cold scientific evidence i.e., actual chemical analysis. The funny thing is that we Muslims claim to be iconoclasts; yet we have not abandoned the practice entirely. As the famous Sufi singer Abida Parveen sang "Pattharo aaj mere sir be barastay kyun ho mein ne tum ko bhi kabhi apna khuda rakkha hai"

@Ameeta, I think of science as the documentation of replicability, with mathematics as its vocabulary. Spirit or attitude provides the fire that makes life worthwhile... Like the Mecca and Haj, I am sure that if a pilgrim were to travel to the 52 Peeths, the resulting inner growth would be tremendous - there are many valid paths. Since we have just completed Ramadan, allow me to share a meditation on which I spent some time. One path to inner growth is through the stages of Islam (submission to God), Iman (conviction of faith), which results in the external payoff, Ehsan (goodness through action). The process chain is formed with the interaction of the “look, think, act” routine in a Bach-like fugue regenerating laterally and into new levels of inner development: (1). The triple fire to prime our neurons and neural networks, both chemical, electrical and focal – the growth of new dendrites to develop and connect the next network layer: knowledge, meditation, and practice. (2). The triple duty to develop depth and breadth of network: study, concentration, and renunciation. (3). The triple process to the discovery path: evidence, inference, and experience.

Well explained....Qamar Rehmani. Thanks.

@Ameeta: The reason no scientific study has been conducted on the Sati thing is because scientifically its not possible to cut up someone in 52 pieces in one go. You can hack a person to pieces with an axe or something but not with a high velocity disk (Sudarsan chakra) with sharp edges. Assuming the chakra has a mind of its own, and kept coming back to cut the body again and again, even then it would be a fairly involved process. Lets say, the chakra cut the torso through and through, the two resulting body half's will fall down on if not on the ground then on the cloud or where ever Sati was standing in the first place. Now the charka will have to change its movement angle from parallel to the ground to perpendicular. It would then have to decide which of the two parts to cut first and proceed to cut it. And why just 52 parts? Why not few more or few less? I can go on but I guess you get the drift. Assuming Sati was really cut into pieces I'd consider it quite grotesque by any standard human or holy. I am glad no money is being wasted on such outlandish stories. I am sure no follower of the Hindu faith would ever want such grotesque things to have really happened, let alone being done by the gods. Lets not try to pass off stories/legends/folklore/mythologies as facts or facts waiting to be corroborated by scientific evidence. It makes us look stupid and creates guilt in the minds of followers and embarrasses the thinking hindu. It also corrupts hindus as they learn omission and commission from the religion itself!

some 800 million Hindus cant be wrong in their faith--the 52 Shakti Peeths were there from time immemorial and will continue to be so --long after you and I are gone--its people like you who give Hinduism a "twisted face"--by all means stick to your way of thinking--but dont preach or pass comments just because you feel differently

“You cannot believe in God until you believe in yourself.” Swami Vivekananda

Well I am not sure who takes pride in interpreting Mahabharata as a nuclear war. Talking scientifically, even the smallest nuclear explosion will make a very very large area in inhabitable, with deformed babies, and considering the half life of radioactive materials it will put Mahabharata way back into the future, even before Vedas or near about. Just because its being done else where doesn't mean its right and we should follow suite. Our scientists have must more pressing issues to tackle. Further, belief, even by a large majority, doesn't make something true/correct/right/factual/just. Belief shouldn't be imposed on others who don't believe. Even I am eagerly waiting for science to catchup and enables time travel so that we can go back in the past and put these stories in their right place and move on in life. Until something is proven scientifically to be true, we shouldn't assume it to be true and keep it in the realm of mythology/folklore/stories/sagas etc. That way people can actually benefit form the inherent moral and spiritual values present in most of them. These are my personal thoughts, and not trying to preach or impose them on anyone. Amen.

@Ameeta Roy: It was indeed a test of patience to go through the VNN article posted by you with a subsequent comment that veracity of such articles should be closely examined. I cannot but agree with you there. Starting with authorship: The article has no author! It is wild, baseless speculative, badarayan (connecting disjointed places, names, words, things using specious arguments). I am sure, with your studious zeal you will be able lay thread- bare each and every inaccuracy contained in each and every line of the anonymous article. In Hindu mythology there is no such God called Macceshwar and there is no such place called Maccapuram. The rest of the wordplay (arabic-sanskrit-English) is perverse. To say Kaba is derived from the Sanskrit word Gabha (Garbha + Graha) is height of Machiavellian cunning. To my knowledge there is no such word as Gabha ( in Sanskrit) derived from Garbha + Griha). This article is in the same category as those which claimed Taj Mahal was originally a Hindu temple or NASA finding evidence of Ram-Setu through satellite images.

Thank you Ameeta and Vikram...for this articulate and passionate discussion on the complex subject of science and faith...interloping with religion,mythology, legend and folklore. Both of you have taken intellectual stands...wherein one gives preeminence to faith to be substanitiated by science and other gives absolute validity to the known scientific laws regardless of anything else. I admire your honesty and conviction to speak what you believe to be true regardless of how they are viewed by others. The two sides actually reflect the perpetual dilemma of 'every' thinking individual....and it is a fact that they can never be reconciled. For someone who beleives the stone idol in a Shakti Peeth is divine...no proof is necessary - whether it is a fossil, meteorite or granite from the nearest quarry. And for someone with an absolute scientific temperament....no proof is sufficient. It makes no difference whether it is a fossil or a meteorite....both are inanimate entities devoid of any miraculous powers. I too have always tilted towards the scientific basis of religion and have suspected the power of faith, prayer, homeopathy etc.. until I came across this path-breaking book by Lynne McTaggart called - 'The Field' recently. She explains at the very beginning itself.... that what we normally believe as science is actually 'Newtonian science' and that these physical laws are 'not relevant' at the sub-atomic and quantum level. These laws it seems just dont apply there.....and every quantum Physicist will validate it as a matter of fact !! What say now ?

One cannot discuss science and religion in the same breath.Science whether Newtonian or quantum is science and religion whether Hindu or Islam is religion based on the irrational but having sociological, psychological and philosophical relevance. it is entirely up to each individual whether to look at things through the light of the rational or through the lens of the emotional. there is no point in trying to refute each other by citing nonexistent evidence.

Ameeta....I think a lot of these legends and myths were metaphors and allegories in order to appeal to the simple folk. Its best left that way...isnt it.

There are many differences between the world's great religions, but there is one thing in common - that Faith and Reasoning are incompatible. This debate has been going on for centuries and will probably never end. Emperor Akbar tried to encourage such debates between the court intellectuals (Faizi, Abul Fazal, Raja Birbal) and religious leaders from among Muslims, Hindus, Jesuits etc but was quite unsuccessful. For example, a Mullah, during an argument, claimed that he can walk on water holding the Holy Book. Akbar immediately ordered that a tank be built in the middle of the palace in Fatehpur Sikri (which still exists today) and invited the Mullah to demonstrate this divine power on a certain day. The Mullah never appeared - could not even be traced! So, a debate between faith and reasoning is likely to lead nowhere. Perhaps Subbiah can change to a more mundane topic such as Flying Saucers or Windmills for a more fruitful discussion.

: )

@Ameeta---from ur name u cud be a Bengali--or married to one---I have the very simple example of "Durga Puja'---which probably u wud be celebrating with great reverence--or wont/dont because technology and science has no explanation on the concept of "Mahisasura Mardini"--after all the 'protimas" are nothing but clay and straw--and if Bengali tradition is to be believed --a hand ful of clay from the red-light area of Kolkata is a must/needed to bind the protimas together---and "faith " is a personal thing---so for all Bongs and other Hindus who celebrate "Nav Ratri'-- -mythology must be interpreted in terms of science and proved that yes 'Ma Durga did exist and yes "she fought Mahisasura"-not-on a linear path--but on an interdisciplinary approach--what ever those obscure words are meant to imply--and that all Bengalis all the world over are are so stupid that rather than see the scientific rationalization they prefer pagan worship--if there is any thing more sanctimonius than your statement -then the whole concept of Hinduism in particular and religion as a whole is bullshit till scientifically proven' So Hindus on pilgrimage to Haridwar---Muslims to Mecca--Jains to Sravanbelgola-Christians to The Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem--Sikhs to Amritsar--Buddhists to Bodhgaya--all need to interpret their mythology thru science on a linear plane--what ever that means and stop doing so because none of it has any scientific proof Jerusalem---now that u mention the Ark of the COVENANT--let me share my experience of my stay in Israel--a long one at that too-in that context---The Ark is a Jewish article of faith---the Temple built by David and destroyed by Titus in 79 AD-was again rebuilt as the second temple--in both cases the Ark was saved and concealed to prevent it from falling into Roman Hands---- National Geographic has an excellent article on the possibility of it being buried in Ethiopia--by "Fellashas"-Ethiopian Jews--so are you implying that since U L I of several churches has failed to unearth the Ten Commandments --they dont exist--till science comes up with the answer--I cant believe that there can be a more stupid answer to any discussion on faith /religion As for me I believe science has no place in my religion

Kanu Chatterjee : To be fair to Ameeta, I dont think she has offended anyone or anybodys faith. She has only expressed her opinion that many of the religious beliefs could be scientifically proven. She has not mentioned anywhere in this discussion that scientific proof is necessary for religious faith ! ....I think we have discussed long enough folks....time to move on.

RBSI---I never said or implied that Ameeta offended me or any faith--my observations are directed towards her insistence that there are scientific queries to stories---I see no need for any science to experiment with my beliefs --religion and science just dont "gel" together-if there was an iota of truth in the above--great thinkers like Tagore--Swami Vivekananda--Mother Teresa---Chaitanya Mahaprabhu--Dalai Lama---would all have questioned the" raison d!etre-"-of their respective faiths--as wud have millions of devotees The personal context of religion stops the minute religion is subjected to scientific"inquisition"